A powerful and deeply personal episode. Special Forces Command Sergeant Major Rob Richards opens up about a hidden battle he didn’t even know he was fighting—emotional numbness after a decade of high-stakes deployments. He and Chuck dive into what self-efficacy means, how experiential learning shapes elite operators, and why ignoring what’s “under your bed” can quietly erode your joy, leadership, and life. Rob shares how therapy, medication, and innovative treatments like the stellate ganglion block helped him reconnect with his emotions, his family, and his purpose. They also tackle leadership across generations, the evolving demands of service, and why fulfillment—not just success—is the true north. This episode is a lesson in resilience, emotional honesty, and redefining strength.
A powerful and deeply personal episode. Special Forces Command Sergeant Major Rob Richards opens up about a hidden battle he didn’t even know he was fighting—emotional numbness after a decade of high-stakes deployments. He and Chuck dive into what self-efficacy means, how experiential learning shapes elite operators, and why ignoring what’s “under your bed” can quietly erode your joy, leadership, and life.
Rob shares how therapy, medication, and innovative treatments like the stellate ganglion block helped him reconnect with his emotions, his family, and his purpose. They also tackle leadership across generations, the evolving demands of service, and why fulfillment—not just success—is the true north.
This episode is a lesson in resilience, emotional honesty, and redefining strength.
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Chuck: Alright. This first topic is something I've heard you say quite a bit. This word, get your thoughts on it. The word self-efficacy in the past, you have said that you believe that achieving that is critical for really anybody. What do you, what do you mean by that?
Rob: So, self efficacy for me is all about being the best you possibly can be.
The most important thing, in special operations is always driving towards excellence, especially as part of a high functioning team. So when it comes to self-efficacy. We have certain way points as we are moving through our career where you can do some check-ins and really explore where your strengths and weaknesses are.
And that's really what I'm talking about.
Chuck: And is this like a word that you came to start using in the military or was this something that you started using like your whole career?
Rob: I've always used it as, you know, Chuck, I come from a different background from most folks in the military. I have a background where I worked in big biotech right before the army.
Efficacy is everything in biotech, and that's really where it derived for me.
Chuck: And we're gonna go into that a little bit later about your, your prior life before the military. But for those who don't know what self-efficacy is, it's really your belief in yourself so that you can be effective and efficient.
It's, it's not just being good at something. It's, it's not just saying that you're good at something, it's actually. Have done it and know what you're talking about, to the point to where you actually believe in yourself. You're not just relying on your innate ability to reinvent the wheel or your innate genius like a lot of people do.
They just try to wing it. You have a belief in yourself based on the fact that you are competent and you know that you're competent because. You've done the iterations as far as I understand the word. , how do you, how do you view it?
Rob: That's a, that's a good
way to
describe it. , there's also more to it, of course, as I've learned and, grew in my career, , there's, certainly experiential learning, which you're talking about, but from experiential learning, you can always bolt on, you know, whatever resource you need to develop those, leadership traits that you want.
Chuck: I think experiential learning is something a lot of people don't quite understand as well. Let's, let's talk about that. What is experiential learning?
Rob: The definition's almost in the word itself, right? It's, it's through experience. You learn, for us, hands-on guys, this is the best way to learn. And you will find quite a bit of that in the army,
Chuck: right?
It's a little bit more taxing, I think, experiential learning versus just sitting in a lecture. Or looking at a bunch of PowerPoint slides, it's, it requires you to use more brain power, more energy, and it really builds this knowledge base that, that can't be replicated with just, just taking some inputs and, and writing some notes and wrote memorization.
Rob: Absolutely. , most of our public school system. Is employing, , experiential learning, you'll get it in, , college or university. , experiential learning is critical to actually putting all the conceptual pieces together. , and exactly what you said,
Chuck: and people hate discussion boards in college where that's, that's part of learning process where you have to actually do something yourself and then come back and state something or present something based off your analysis versus just taking a test.
You know, , you see, I know that people rage against it in special operations when they come to some of our academic courses where we're not just giving you the answers to the test. We're gonna have a discussion. We're gonna force you to read and research and present the class with something. We're gonna do an exercise and it's taxing and it's, you're not gonna learn as quickly.
But your ability to use critical thinking afterwards, I think is, is phenomenal.
Rob: Exactly. You know, when it comes to regurgitating facts, that's the easy part. Any one of us can, you know, pull out the book or remember a lecture and, and regurgitate facts. But when it comes to what's important is your understanding and your analysis of those facts and what drives your lack of better terms, analysis of a situation where you can use those facts to, um, better understand that situation and, and potential outcomes.
Chuck: All right, so that's self-efficacy, which I've heard you say quite a few times, but the title of this episode right now, which we can change, but right now you can't see what's under your bed lurking. Right? And that's talking about how, unless you wanna look under your bed, you're not, you don't know what's under there.
And most people don't wanna look under there. But generally there's some stuff under there you've been looking for, , or there's something under there that. So it just shouldn't be there. That could be problematic, and you just, you never look under there, so you don't know what it is. In your particular case, you have a story of overcoming that you've explained to me where you didn't even know you had an issue.
You were just living your life as Rob Richards. You thought that everything was great, didn't see any problems, and then at some point, either it was your wife or somebody brought it to your attention, and even then you didn't fully realize the problem until you went. Did something about it. So that's what I want to go.
Give us a backstory, like what was the genesis of this issue? What was the issue, and then how did we get into tackling the issue?
Rob: All right, Chuck, this is a good one. This is, this is something I'm, I'm not so good at talking about, but I, I'm gonna give it my best. So first I'll start off with a background of, my career where I came from, right?
So. 2007, I start my journey in, in special operations, and immediately, right off the bat, I'm deploying nonstop. Boom, boom, boom. The wash, rinse, repeat of deployments. Well, here we are in, in, in 2021 and I've now done 10 deployments. Things are starting to slow down. We're looking at post-war in Afghanistan.
We're looking at, , potentially a more peaceful time. Maybe not in the world of geopolitics when it comes to near peers and competitors, but, , active conflict we're, much less deployed with that. The slow down was particularly challenging. 10 deployments, seven of 'em combat. And I'm thinking I'm just me.
You know, the guy that went on his first deployment is the guy that is gone on his last deployment and is experiencing this slowdown, but not, not the case. , in reality, , little pieces of me were dropping away. I'm noticing that. My emotions aren't quite in tune with everyone around me. , the day I noticed it, actually, my son was playing T-ball and I'm sitting there in the crowd and the bleachers and the parents are all going nuts around me and the cheering on their kids.
And I'm sitting there stoic and I'm thinking to myself, huh, this is, this is odd. Why are they so excited? What's, what's it with them? That makes this so exciting? And I'm just not feeling it. I'm just not feeling it. And you know, when it comes to where I was in life, I'm like, well, maybe it's that. No, it's everyone else but me.
I am the only one. And so I was kind of jealous. I, I wanted to feel excitement. I wanted to enjoy life. That's when I decided to enroll in, , some counseling , and later on some actual, , therapy to, to explore what was going on with me.
Chuck: So you went to therapy, like what, what were the, the means, the avenues that you took?
You know, because there's different, there's different types of therapy. And even lately, you've, you've been messing with the stoic ganglion block, you know, later, but that was, you know, years after this.
Rob: Yeah. And, and,
Chuck: and modalities, I guess is the word I'm looking for.
Rob: We'll, we'll approach this, like, you know, we'll, we'll go into depth as, as we go along and I'll, I'll, I'll stop so you can ask some questions.
Along the way, but, , first why I went into therapy, right? That's, that's where it started. , I want to, I want to enjoy life. I, was missing something, you know, going to the amusement park. The rides weren't as good going to my kids, you know, concerts and recitals wasn't so fun. , all the things that you should enjoy about life just wasn't there.
That was the trigger for me.
Chuck: And real quick, this is, this is you going into therapy. At a very advanced stage of your life too. This is, you know, how many years in at this point,
Rob: so, okay. , 2021. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a company sergeant major at this point, and so that, that is, um, you know, top of. The enlisted, , promotion, you know, for us, a lot of guys start retiring at this point.
You know, this is now for me, I was a little quicker, weird guard time math and stuff like that. I was sitting at about 18 years of service and so, . I'm recognizing the wars, you know, and, and part of it is, you know, the wars are over and I'm recognizing that. And, , where should my focus be? I'm, I'm noticing, you know, these, the wash, rinse, repeat cycles of deployments aren't really there.
That was my purpose, that was my drive. Everything was focused towards that. And now it's like, well, I've been neglecting this whole other thing over here called family. , oh, and by the way, what are my hobbies and, and what, what do I do with my life day to day? Whereas I'm graduating up into these more senior levels and now I'm taking a step back from that active tactical role.
So that, that's where my head was at. That's what got me in the door at, at therapy. And , to be honest, that was just scratching the surface, , because. Once you unlock that door, all that is pushed into, I guess the best way to say this. Compartments, , comes, starts to come flooding out, and that was almost overwhelming.
So here I am at my first therapy section sessions. I was in a program called Intrepid Spirit Return Forces. Amazing, amazing program. It really focuses on folks that plan on continuing to serve, addressing the the physical spiritual. Psychological issues that have accumulated over a career and getting that person right to, to serve five, 10 more years.
Part of the, and what we're talking about is the psychological component. Stepped in there not expecting much, but I did wanna work on this family piece 'cause I, I just felt like I wasn't living life to its fullest. And, , we started working through. My deployments on what was most stressful. We, we went, we used EMDR and in this bout we uncovered that, you know, there was, there was definitely some feelings of guilt, shame, and we really talked about, I.
The psychological pathways on what you do, why you do it? Well, I work through that, come out the other side of a five week program and it's not much better. Couple months go by, I end up taking a survey for socom, and in that survey it assesses your exposure to blasts, TBIs, and some of the emotional components and psychological components that go with it.
Didn't completely off guard. When the results came back, when you do this survey, you actually have, and it's really neat, your wife does one, you do one, and then it gets analyzed by a nurse practitioner. Then she interviews you and then she gives you your results. Well, when the results came back, um, instead of severely depressed, it's like, well, how, how could this be?
I don't feel sad. I don't, I'm not upset. , I, I don't understand. , oh, and by the way, you have some anxiety stuff going on. It's like, okay, I, okay. I get the anxiety of, you know, that, that makes sense. You know, there's always this, this sense of like, I want to do, well, I wanna push myself to my, my extremes, right?
But depression, that, that doesn't make sense to me. Well, I start my second round of, uh, therapy, the second round with a therapist, he starts digging into, well, what is depression? And, and, and why do you think. You are depressed. Well come to find out that the worst cases of depression are actually when you shut down your emotions completely.
Not only do you not feel the good emotions, you don't feel the negative emotions, and that's where it really comes out of. , all those things that have accumulated over career, things that you know happened to me as a child. All these things accumulate over time. My response to that was, well, I don't wanna feel those negative things, so I'm not gonna feel the positive things either.
That's, that's just how the brain work. And , at that point he recommended, Hey, you know, it might be a good idea to go on medication. And, so I do, I tried out some medication and, , holy crap, that was a shock. And in doing so in the first 24 hours was crazy. The ups, the downs, feeling for the first time.
I'm so happy. I'm so sad. I'm. Laying on the couch, face down, kind of laugh, crying. Trying to rectify like, man, I haven't felt anything in so long. What is, and so the shorter version is we worked through some of the things that were haunting me in my life. And about two months into doing all this, I'm starting to notice a difference.
And in that difference, I became more of a functioning component of my family, , emotionally, physically, , and, and understanding like where I should be, when I should be, you know, all these things that are important to my spouse, my kids and my wife actually caught me off guard. And then it's kind of what you were talking about, Chuck.
One day she says, Hey, welcome back. I was like, what? What do you mean? Like, I, I didn't understand, I was taken aback. And she says, I haven't seen you in 15 years. Completely taken aback. And this, oh, by the way, happened when I came over to my current job in 2023. So I did that six month period roughly. Tried out medication and, and, and, you know, I would tell you for me, the, the EBH thing, medication was always kind of like, oof.
Don't want to touch that. But I will tell you it was worth every bit of it because, , it changed my life. And it's certainly not something that has to be permanent for you, but the results are,
Chuck: all right. Now let's
Rob: fast forward.
Chuck: Well, real quick, for people that know what EBH is, it's just behavioral health in the military.
Oh, there you go.
Rob: Now let's, let's fast forward. , so now my therapist, you know, retires gets outta the army. That's okay. And, you know, I kind of, I think I'm, I'm good and I'm gonna continue on my way, but I'm starting to fall in the. Uh, patterns and this time depression's really real, like now that I've pulled myself out of emotionless depression, I came back up.
I felt really good. And then I wasn't really addressing the issues, , that are related to self-efficacy. And, and believing in myself and, and all those things that are. So important to your psychological wellbeing. And so I started thinking right back down into to depression and, and, and what I ended up doing is I went out and saw the therapist again and, you know, I asked about an SGB, which is a Stella.
Ganglion block and my, my therapist, the one I'm, I'm still currently seeing says, yeah, that's, that's a great idea. Um, why don't you, if you, if you're up for it, let's give it a try, see how it works for you. Well, the best part about SGB is it's. All the same effects as the medication, none of the side effects, which huge difference.
And it really allows you to address how you should feel with a clear mind unclouded by all those symptoms that you have from depression, anxiety, and, and you can work through. Some of the stuff that you, you've been accumulating over a life. So that's where I'm currently at. , I would tell you that, let's talk
Chuck: about the SGB real quick.
Like can you explain it? Like what is it? Because most people don't know what it's
Rob: Okay. That's, yeah. Uh, an SGB is. Stell Gangling block. I think I'm saying that right. Yeah. Um, and what they do is quite literally, you go to pain management at Womac and they put a big long needle in your neck.
Chuck: They do this at non-military hospitals too.
You gotta find the right one. The va.
Rob: Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's, it's. Simple in and out procedure, not they numb. It's not painful. I mean, honestly, it's, it's a little more intrusive than, you know, your normal inoculation for a vaccine. But it, it, it's pretty simple. You're in and out in 40 minutes.
, you can't drive. That's certainly the case. , I was euphoric after my first one. , I would've drove right into a tree, certainly Unreal. . Don't understand why it works. It doesn't really matter. It does, and the way that the actual people that you know, execute the procedure will tell you is it just gives you, at a minimum, a little bit more emotional regulation where you can think for a couple seconds longer , and be in the right frame of mind as things pop up in life where you need a little bit more resilience.
Chuck: I think that our bodies get used to habits. So anything we do in life, we talk about how you gotta build these good habits. Because then if you do it consciously, then you just do it. But unconsciously too, you know, our body has what's called heart rate variability. Yep. Which is a measure of, our stress levels.
Or it can be, but when we're stuck in these certain modes through habit, because we're just used to it, our body gets stuck there. And I think there's still a ganglion block. 'cause I've done it too. It, it just forces that hard reset button where your body's like, oh, okay, this is. Back to normal. It's relearn how to be.
'cause you can see people that are stuck in a constant, you know, a, a chronically low heart rate variability where they are stressed out of there just a little bit more on edge. And, I've seen it not work on people, but most of the time people come outta there and they're just like, oh wow. Like nothing can bother me that the world could be on fire right now.
And I just wouldn't care,
Rob: you know? And, and you know, I'm, I'm more than. Happy to nerd out with you for a minute. Yeah, there's the whole parasympathetic, sympathetic nervous system and, and some of us that have been to combat multiple times are kind of stuck in that fight or flight response, and this helps shut that down for a second, so you get those extra seconds
Chuck: because it becomes normal, because you, yeah.
I think when you're in that too, you feel like you have a little bit more control or maybe a little bit more powerful. And then a lot of times when you're in that rest and digest mode, you're, you are a little bit more vulnerable because that's what it's for. Like the, the body does those things for a reason and it puts you in that mode because now you're ready for
Rob: Yeah.
Survivability. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, and, and you know, the, this, this, , the problem we have victimization, right? And I think it's noteworthy here, and I, I want to add this. , it is the opposite of self-efficacy. Right. , victimization puts you in a position where it's the world doing things to you and you feel that you have no control over that.
Self-efficacy is about taking control. , and that, that's, I think, noteworthy. 'cause you're never going to get ahead in any of your endeavors until you take control , and, and you do what
Chuck: you need. Sometimes take accountability for things like, Hey, did, did I put myself in this situation? That's stressing me out right now where I feel like.
It's all these other things. Am I really the cause? 'cause you know, it goes back to the, Hey man, don't, don't be a victim in a situation you create. Right? Which happens with the best of us do it. And we always look for a way to not harm our own egos. We're like, no, actually, you know what? This is my doing and once I take responsibility for it, I can take the wheel instead of being like,
Rob: oh, it's, yeah.
And, and, and, you know, and there's all sorts. . Pieces around that, that are, are super challenging. 'cause it's easy to put blame on others. It really is, but it's really hard to look at yourself and reflect on, you know, you know, maybe I, I probably, yeah, no, I am responsible for this and, and my actions weren't the best.
You know, the other part about being the best you possibly can be now in the self-efficacy world. It, it's also, you know, knowing that you have faults that that's okay. Everyone does, everyone makes mistakes. It's, it's not the point. And it's not to rule out mistakes or faults, it's, it's to be the best version of yourself.
Chuck: You know what's interesting though, what I wanna do a study on is, even though we're talking about taking accountability and taking the wheel, if you're in a relationship or in a marriage, there's times where you're like, you know what? I know I'm wrong right now, but I'm just gonna dig in. I'm not gonna at fault right now because
Rob: it
Chuck: happens and you'll realize it.
You like. I know what the right answer is, but I'm just not gonna do that. But I don't know why that is. I wanna do a stay. Like why,
Rob: does that happen? I'll, only venture a guess for you. We dig in. 'cause emotional reasons. We don't want to be defeated, , in our argument. We just wanna be Right, right.
And, yeah, I mean, God, , if we could just have a button to turn that off, wouldn't life be easier?
Chuck: That would be pretty awesome. Alright, so we went through. The story of you later in life, overcoming some things that were taking away from your, what we talked about in the beginning, the self-advocacy where you didn't even realize there was a problem, but although it might not have directly impacted how you felt yourself functioning, it absolutely did.
Because without emotion, because everybody's, everybody talks about, especially sto, it's like, well, you know, get away from motion. Like we need emotion. If you need a balance emotion, you need a balanced logic. You can, you can be too logical, you can absolutely too emotional. Mm-hmm. But you need both of them to survive in life.
'cause the body has them for a reason, which I'd argue that logic. And then the day of the internet might be a dying art. But that's, that's a different topic to talk about right there. But let's go back in time. So this is later Rob Richards. But before you joined the military, you were all, you were a successful civilian.
Let's cover what you were doing there and how you even came to join the army kind of at a late point in, in your life, considering like, people like me joined at 19, which you did not,
Rob: right? , yeah. This very much defines on, you know, who I am and, and how I think, and, you know, a lot of my presentations to, guys and, .
Institute and, and when I go talk to the operating groups, , we'll have this laid in there just so people understand who I am. So to start, , I had a pretty typical, you know, upbringing. , you know, I, did the whole high school right into college, graduated from college, , on time with a bachelor's in, in biology, , concentration micro molecular biology.
Which led me to, you know, a lot of uncertainty 'cause it's not really a ton of jobs for a bachelor with micro, , molecular biology. I was thinking at some points I wanted to be a doctor, , did some, , internships and that just wasn't right for me. And then I'm like, okay, let's try this, this other thing and this other thing and this other thing.
And it led me into, teaching, which, which is a, which is a funny, . A whole, that could be a whole podcast in itself. , I taught special ed at, at a, , well, I'll just leave out the location and, and stuff like that 'cause , I'll keep those memories to myself. But that, that was, , certainly sometimes it definitely taught me a lot about myself.
But ultimately I landed in, in big biotech and, and worked my way up through some of the ranks there, , into, into executive leadership and. I will tell you there was a theme there, right? I was doing the next thing. I kept moving through life. What is it that I am looking for? 'cause I was lost. I couldn't find a purpose and it was challenging.
I, I jumped from all these different jobs and, you know, some jobs I, jumped right after the year would be up, ah, got, got my experience going to the next one. Hopefully what I find in this next one will be what I'm looking for. Just never happened. Oh, and by the way, , while I was in college, I, I went to basic training for the National Guard and, oh, excuse me, the, , the reserve later transferred into the National Guard, and I found something special there.
When, when I did it was something I can't quite describe, but I, I felt very. , drawn to it. So life's going on and I run into one of my, my good friends and he goes, Hey Rob. Hey, , I just joined the SF National Guard. Maybe it's something you'd like. Why don't you come out and check it out? And I did.
Failed miserably at it, wasn't ready for it. It completely unprepared. , went out for a drill weekend and, and got crushed, but it put a spark in there and I was like, wow, that is something I want. I failed at that. I've, up until this point, I haven't failed at anything. I was just kind of existing, you know, I was rolling through life like, wow, this is where I want to go with this.
And so I try again. I get in and then next thing you know it, I'm going through a qualification course. And you know, these all happy times for me. I'm, like, wow, I found something I truly enjoy. And to the point where. I knew this was what I needed to do and that it's all about purpose, right? I knew this is how I wanted to live now, and I'll tell you, I had the, office with the window out on Cape Cod in downtown Boston.
You know, I had my own bathroom. I had all the perks, all the pay, everything, but it just didn't have the purpose. And, that was what was different about the army. I came in and, there was just something about it that drew me.
Chuck: So you were successful, but it didn't provide fulfillment because I think a lot of people, they confuses in life, they confuse this image of success of these cars and this money and this perfect life, and that's gonna lead to happiness, but that's not reality.
Fulfillment is very personal and you gotta figure out, there's, there's lots of very poor people that I know that are completely happy in life and, and they don't need that stuff,
Rob: right?
Chuck: It because it's personal. You gotta figure that out.
Rob: 100%. , you know, I, I was the guy thinking that the status, you know, like your doctor, right?
That's a status symbol. The pay that comes along with it. I like, yeah, that's, that's what success, obviously I like doing that. , and yeah, just like some of my friends, I mean, who doesn't like money? Like, okay, yeah, I want money. I want to work hard. , and, and be proud of what I do. But that premise falls apart the moment where you don't see the value in your work, or you don't see the value in, what you're doing.
This thing that you have in the military that is very hard to describe. It's that connection to others and it gives it meaning because that connection is just so serious in times of like combat, right? And like how what you do can affect , the survival of your buddies around you and just how important that is.
I, I can't think of a, more profound way to have like that, I guess that sense of spirituality amongst
Chuck: teammates like training for professional sports, but instead of going out and maybe spraining an ankle. The, consequences of not being good at the game are, death.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And so I, you know, the stakes are high, right?
And so there's, if you, if you don't feel purpose here, you, you won't make it.
Chuck: It's not just the stakes are high for you, you being bad or you making a poor decision is gonna affect the lives of others and that's gonna affect the lives of their families. And it's, it is an interesting concept of. How stressful that can be, but also how fulfilling and rewarding it is to be a part of it.
It's kinda a weird dichotomy, really. I think about it often. I've never been able to figure it out.
Rob: Yeah. I, got nothing for you on that one,
Chuck: because people ask all the time, well, like, well, why do you do what you do? It's like, that's a really good question that I don't have an answer for you, but it's very fulfilling.
It's very rewarding. It's about being part of something bigger than yourself, but when you really start dissecting, you're like, this doesn't make any sense.
Rob: Yeah. You know, that's, that's a good one. , 'cause like you always hear the, that the standard answers, right? Like, oh, to serve my country Oh, to challenge myself.
Right. But yeah, absolutely. When you reflect deeply within, like, actually why do you do this?
Chuck: And like just this, there's a really big question mark there, right? And you're often excited. Like, it's weird. People are like, oh, I'm so sorry. Had to deploy. I'm like, whatcha you talking about? I'm trying to find the next deployment.
Like it's, it's such a weird,
Rob: I, remember plenty of times interacting with folks back home in the Northeast where I was like, Hey guys, I'm going to my next deployment. And they're like, oh, I'm so sorry to hear. Oh. And they talked to my wife like, oh, how are you gonna make it through this? And we're both looking at each other like.
Rob (2): Oh,
Rob: you know, like, this is what we signed up to do. Like this, this isn't a sad moment, you know? This is, you weren't drafted. No. Yeah. Yeah. This is on the contrary, like you said, I'm pretty excited to what, what, what will we be doing? You know, and, and, and how we gonna get the job
Chuck: done. It's a never ending cycle of problems that you have to overcome.
And maybe that's the thing is people like you, you enjoy that adversity. You enjoy the fact that you're gonna go into it with a group of people that are like-minded and you're gonna enjoy tackling these problems. You're not gonna be like, oh, another issue. Like, no, bring the issue. Let's find, let's look at this, take this issue apart and just crush it.
Rob: Absolutely. It's, it's like this weird attraction to uncertainty. Like, like, yeah, I need to, I need to get after that. Like who in their right mind wants to be. Living in a constantly uncertain world where life or death is the outcome based on how much you prepare and how much you study. For example, like, or, , maybe not
Chuck: study, but plan, educate yourself, you study.
Rob (2): Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chuck: There's a lot of, there's a lot of book learning to war fighting that people don't quite comprehend. And if you want to be proficient at it, especially as you move up in a rank, you could dig into books and truly understand the concepts. So that you can be a good leader on the battlefield, right?
It's not just I gotta be good at my weapon or I gotta be good at trauma medicine. No, actually to be good at being able to conceptualize this problem and, and think through it. Right? And that takes a lot of education.
Rob: It's funny that that brings another misconception, you know, that there's the, maybe the draft days that.
Not the best and brightest are in the military. Right. And Oh, sorry, that was your last option, right? Well, that's not true. The people I'm surrounded by on a daily basis are absolutely some of the most brilliant people I've, ever worked with. And, , I could say that 'cause I've, worked across multiple industries and, the talent pound for pound is just unmatchable.
I don't know what brings it all here. And, why? , I don't think anyone knows, honestly, we'd be better at recruit very
Chuck: intelligent weirdos, right? Yeah. We, we'd be better at recruiting at this point, right? There's, there's no normal, like, people are like, oh, why aren't you normal? Like, no, being normal is average.
Like if you look at the bell curve, normal is you don't wanna be in the middle, especially in this community. Like it's, maybe that's what's enjoy about it too. You're, there's so many characters like on a special forces team that. It just, it's always an interesting time. Any, any day you walk in a team room and it's, nothing's gonna ever be the same, and you never know it's coming and it's gonna be.
You're gonna overcome things, but it's always gonna be very interesting
Rob: amusement
Chuck: park
Rob: for a
Chuck: DHD, right? Kids, right? Oh yeah. I would argue that half of us are probably on the spectrum somewhere, right? Oh yeah. We got some neurotic issues. We got, , you know, but that's what makes us good at what we do. Okay, so with that, we went over your, background in the civilian world.
So you've seen. How the civilian world, world works to a very high level. And now you've seen the military side of the house to a very high level. So with that, now that you're a senior leader in special operations and you've held those positions in the civilian world, how does Rob Richards define leadership?
Rob: Honestly, I'm still working through that. Leadership is an ever evolving thing, , for me. I'm understanding now that. There's direct and indirect leadership, and I, see that the arm makes really good direct leaders. You know, those guys that are right there with you to set limits, to be the ones to teach, coach, mentor you.
, but in, in reality, like as you move up in, in your rank and in position, there's a lot more indirect leadership and that's where there's a tremendous amount of trust. And while I've always preached, you know, trust. Patience and altruism as, values. I didn't understand even a year ago on how important those would become.
As your organization gets bigger and as you're moving up in rank, it really is all about being the right leader at the right place for the people or the, or. You know, if you want phrase it differently, it's being the leader they need you to be. , Army's got this weird thing. Swap leaders every couple years.
The civilian world, that's called revolving door leadership. It definitely comes with a negative connotation, but I also understand why the army does it. In the Army, you pour yourself into each position as a leader, and by the time you. Hit that two year mark. It's, , it's about right to to move on because you are mentally and emotionally
Chuck: drain.
It's Mike Lario, who's our normal host, often says, he says. As a leader, you gotta meet people where they're at, instead of trying to force them to be where you're at. It often causes a disconnect, and to do that requires some humility and the ability to, to realize that at some point you were also there, so you didn't, it's called the curse of knowledge, right?
Where you can't fathom that you didn't know all this stuff, but you gotta realize like, no, no, no. It took you a long time, even you said it, even at this point in your life, you were still trying to define it for yourself. You're still on this journey. You don't have all the answers, and I think that's always important to realize.
You're like, okay, well. I have to know my target audience and I have to adjust myself to them, not the other way around, which a lot of people, they're like, I don't understand why these guys just aren't getting it. Well, look at the way you're presenting it
Rob: and you know, to that, to that matter. Right? So I'm a Gen Xer and, uh, you know, there's always jokes about the millennials.
, well now, now I'm Gen Z, right? That's coming into the army and, each generation, whether it's. , defined as, as folks say it is or not, it doesn't matter. There are, certain differences as, we move along, right? Gen Xers communicate different from millennials for the most part, and millennials communicate different from Gen Zs.
And my point is that I've had to grow, right? My, my generation was execute, do it as I say, right? And no questions asked. Execute. Right. And that's what we did. We're like, okay, Roger that moving out. And then millennials want to hear the why. And that was fascinating to us. And, I had to adapt my leadership to, okay guys, this is what we're gonna do.
This is why we're gonna do it. This is why the world is the way it is. This is why we're doing this or not doing this. And, that was actually impactful for, most folks. And, and that's how I communicated up until recently. Now I'm starting to find in my, latest rendition is Gen Zers not only want the why, but they want you present.
They wanna see your face, they want to be, they want you to be, uh, you know, the proverbial dad coming to watch, you know, junior at the soccer game. And, , and then having those, deep, wide discussions with them. So, , like you was saying, Chuck, like there is an evolution to leadership. It, it's not static.
Leaders are today will not be what leaders are tomorrow. , but there are certainly, , principles that you, you should abide by that, you know, that will make you more successful as a leader. , I, , you know, I, started talking about trust. That's my biggest one. I mean, it's, it's the easy one. It's like kind of the poster.
Of all, you know, leadership values, right? You gotta have trust in your people. And, what I mean by that is you gotta have trust so that your folks are allowed to fail, but learn from it. And, in there, that's why I have patience, right? Gotta give yourself patience. You can't be that guy that just jumps in there to help 'em out.
And, you know, going back to the bigger organizations in direct leadership, you might not have the opportunity to, to step in there and , and help them out every time. Right. And, then there's that altruism, right? You wanna bring people to their highest point. You wanna make the best versions of themselves, , and shorten that learning time that it took you to become a leader as much as possible by just infusing them with, , the bits that, you know, will help them out.
Chuck: It's interesting you talk about, you know, the leaders of today aren't gonna be leaders of tomorrow, or, you know, the same type of steps. So I've thought like, okay, let's take Teddy Roosevelt for example. Right. A powerhouse of a leader. Right. Can that, but I also like, okay, well if, if Teddy Roosevelt was Teddy Roosevelt in today's time, this dude would probably just be canceled, right?
With the stuff he's saying. And it probably just would all of that. That is something like you take a lot of lessons from the things that he did, but if you try to do that in the ways he did 'em now, I just don't think it would be that effective because people wouldn't be as receptive to it. They'd be like, man, this dude is an asshole.
Right. And the social media would go wild and they'd be like, cancel this guy, and then he's all done.
Rob: Yeah. You're not wrong. I mean, I'm hard pressed to give you any kind of understanding of why it changes over time and, our understanding. But you know, the, I'm sure part of societal norms and as we move.
Through, you know, space and time and like the idea of, you know, what right. Looks like in society is, is certainly changed,
Chuck: right? It's just adaptability comes on to just being adaptable. I mean, I recently read Undaunted Courage of the Lewis Clark expedition, right? And it was interesting 'cause it's from the Mewell Merriweather Lewis perspective, superior officer live with the president, was taught by the greatest minds of the time, did this amazing thing, completed this amazing thing, came back, not only failed afterwards, but committed suicide because.
I would say there's some hubris in there, but he failed to stay adaptable and what was, and what worked then did not work when he became a governor and all these other things he was trying to do. So I just think it's a great lesson for all of us. Like, Hey, man, like just because this worked here, or you were awesome here.
If you stop being adaptable, that doesn't mean that's gonna equate to success in the future. 'cause none of us are entitled to anything, but we keep, continue to earn, right? It's like, no, nobody cares what we did yesterday. It's what are you bringing to the table today? And I think it's just that we have to, if we stop being adaptable and you know you're resting your laurels, you get set in your ways.
I think that's where I. People. It's like we were talking before we started recording about people not wanting to continue to dig into books and educate themselves and the stuff that's not that sexy military, that's when you become irrelevant. That's when you start to fail because you're just relying on your innate genius and ability to reinvent the wheel and what you did in the past.
But like you said, that changes. Everything has to change, right? And if you're not open to it, then you know what's gonna happen. I'm sure you can think of a, a great leader that only made it to a certain point and.
Rob: Yeah, the, Peter principle, so to speak. It's the Peter principle, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You burn out and even, even though you have all the, you know, the check the block attributes for leadership, there was always that, that thing, that un unspoken thing that just kind of held you to a limit, and, you know, when they pushed you beyond that limit, you fell on your face.
You know, interestingly, adaptability. I like the way you use that. I use it in a, in a more simple terms. I,. I'm, thinking about my kids, right? This is kind of weird for me 'cause they will come home every day from school and they're like, man, I love school. And that's actually a surprise for me. Right.
You know, growing up I remember all the folks around me, all the kids around me are like, oh God, school, what's next? Oh God. We, always looked forward to recess. We, wanted to be at gym. We didn't wanna be actually in the classroom and it's. As a society, we've, adapted on how we educate our, kids.
And, you know, when we, when we talk about the future of the force and, what we have in store for us, there's always this negative connotation on, oh, you know, they're soft, they're weak, or what I would say it's, I. Kind of the opposite actually. , I've talked to my kids. They love being in school. They love learning, they love experiential learning specifically, and they're talking about things that I didn't talk about and I'm, I'm, I'm saying things in elementary school I didn't even talk about till, high school.
And so these kids get spit out on the other end and that those would be our, , the future, , of our force. Right. And, these kids are learning to live life different. Right. Their teachers are less authoritative, they're more mentor now. Right? And, so things like that, even, though it's kind of a weird, you know, parallel, it will affect in the future.
How we lead our folks. 'cause those guys will and gals will be recruits someday.
Chuck: I think it's, sometimes hard for us too, because this generation does question things more, which I think is good, but sometimes it gets a little over. Like for example, my son just learned how to drive against his, for his car.
We're stopped at a stop light. We're taking a left hand turn and it turns green. And you sitting there, I'm like, what are you doing? Go, it's a green light. He's like, no, this, this light only turned yellow. I'm like, it's, clearly a green light. Go. You got cars behind you? He's like, no, I've been here before like this.
This is just a yellow light. I'm like, look at the light. He's like, oh. I was like, okay. Like you're questioning what I'm saying, and I get it. That's good. But sometimes you gotta like,
Rob (2): yeah.
Chuck: You know, it's, it's a, it's a weird balance, I think, because you're right. I don't think we questioned things as much when we were younger.
I. But, and, and I think it's good for critical think we're like, yes, don't just believe everything that's presented to you, for sure. Right. , but also don't just question like, I'm, literally sitting in a blue chair, like it's, it's a blue chair, like, don't like this, but is there really blue? Like
Rob: there's a balance there.
Certainly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure.
Chuck: Uh, yeah. But we gotta be adaptable, right? Yep. , and that comes back to patience too. Adaptability and patience, I think goes hand in hand. And that's always a balance. Okay, so this is a question that Michael Ario likes to ask. It's his staple question that he's made is, this is what I'm gonna ask every single podcast.
Name a time that you wanted to quit, but didn't you were just gonna, virtually I am done. But then you did,
Rob (2): Hmm.
Rob: This is actually a lot easier for me. So it was, it was most recent and I'm, I'm really letting you into my vulnerability here. So I, I was really low. , I don't know what was going on. Why, still trying to figure that out.
But I,, for whatever reason, I was really low and, you know, in, in that depressive state. I was asking myself, you know, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Obviously, it's not right. , I, I need to do something different. And, you know, the, the guy that manages us on the enlisted side, I, I respect deeply and I thought about it.
Say, okay, I need to tell him I'm, in a bad place. And I didn't, I wanna let him down. There was a second thought in my head that said, Hey, chill out. You're in a bad place. This is temporary. We can work through this. We can figure it out. And I did. And that's, exactly what happened. It was temporary.
It was hard. It was, it was the lowest I've ever been. There's no, there's nothing I can ever tell you or say to you right now that can ever. You know, put you in my shoes at that moment. Right? And, and I, and it was a testament to resilience on my own part. And, it will now fill me with, , a empathy that I've never experienced before.
And, and I understand very deeply when people are low, how they can make decisions, , that aren't in the best interest of themselves or their families.
Chuck: So he would come to you with issue. Now it's similar. Instead of being like, Hey, you just need to like stop being that. You actually understand what it is they're probably going through.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And I, think that's also, you know, we were talking about leadership, an extremely important piece of leadership, right? You talked about self-efficacy, learning through experiential, you know, that whole experiential learning model where you build this, you know, this repository of, , experiences in, in life, and, and they apply those, right?
All these things help you be. The better person and the better leader for the folks you, know, you
Chuck: lead. Yeah. To lead yourself, right? You gotta lead yourself first. You gotta govern yourself. And that starts there.
Rob: Some of us tend to forget about ourselves, and we're typically the last person we take care of, and we're all about taking care of everyone around us.
And then you don't realize that, oh, by the way, you're not swimming, you're sinking.
Chuck: It's. The word selfish is often this, this derogatory term, right? But the reality is you have to be selfish. You have to, you know, get selfishness and, and selflessness. But you know, Michael talks about being the fulcrum all the time.
But the reality is you have to balance that. If you're not taking care of yourself, you can't be selfless and take care of other people. You have to balance that. It's good to take care of yourself. It's good to educate yourself. Go to college, take some time for you, do things that are for you. Being proud of your accomplishments and bragging about this time is perfectly okay.
Like, take care of yourself so you can take care of other people. A lot of people when they just go and they devote time towards others, when they let themselves flounder, then they stop being as effective with helping other people. They don't even see it.
Rob: Yeah. , you know, actually, I. That's a, that's a really good thing that, you know, I, I weigh in on selflessness.
Self selfish. Yes. There we go. , that one is one of the hardest things to overcome as a leader in my, experience. What I've had to do is exactly what you said, is I had to turn what I define as selfish into something that benefited others. For example, I brought up the specter of intrepid spirit. The, , the whole return to forces five week program where they do a head to toe assessment and you work on all, all your dimensions, right?
, in, in, by our very definition alone, that would be selfish. Well, what is more selfish? Denying yourself that opportunity. To make yourself better, right? And so by, by doing that, now you're presenting as a leader who is potentially, , compromised emotionally, mentally, right? From all the different TBIs deployments, all, all these things, right?
Or are you taking care of yourself and being the best leader that you can be for your people? That was significant for me, right? And, so whatever reason we're not. Designed to be in the army so many years without having regular checkups, , or at least soft. I can, I can speak to soft. The folks to my left and right, , are doing the same thing.
I am in, in a lot of ways. And I get it, you know, it's, it's necessary And I think there is a change in perception on taking care of yourself, , that, that selfishness label.
Chuck: Personal game people like, oh, you're doing it for personal game. Like,
Rob: yes. And you know, yes. And, but it, you, you've gotta be the best.
Right? , just like you would think back to, , the days you were on the squad or on the team, right. You would, you would make sure that you were prepared for the operation. You would make sure all your stuff packed out. You would make sure you get a good rest period between, you know, operations so that you're not a, you know, that you're not injured that so you're not a liability to, to the guys.
Right. And so very much the same things. Right. And, and you know, somewhere along the line, you know, whether it was in like basic training or something, maybe we started associating, you know, medical care with selfishness. 'cause you know, there's always the stories of the guy like, oh yeah, I'm going to get a profile.
So I don't have to do pt. Right? And I don't know how much that's true anymore, but maybe that's where it comes from. I don't know. But if, if we deny ourselves, , you know, the care, the education, , while we're still in, then we are denying our support, , our, subordinates,
Chuck: the best versions of ourselves.
Alright? Build, building your net. We're just taking care of yourself like the, we. The whole thing is like, well, that person's doing it for personal gain. Well, yeah, but for instance, right. I've always had a thing like, why are you on social media? Why do, why do you care about messaging all these people? It's like, well, I had somebody tell me that once.
I was like, well, you give a lot of speeches in the military. Like, well, yeah, I have to, in my position. I was like, okay, do you come in here and want five people in the audience, or do you want this place filled out because you believe your message needs to impact the maximum of people? Like, I was like, well, yeah, it's.
It's personal gain. If I'm making posts and I'm growing a followship, follower, followership, but what that does allows me to get out the message that I believe is positive and and has a good effect on more people. It allows me to advocate for things like this podcast episode advocate for veteran-owned companies.
It allows me to get that message out to more people. I don't get paid for it. My personal gain there is the fulfillment in doing that. That's the purpose, right? That's the purpose in it. And. I think people, oftentimes you see the social like, oh, that person just, just self, self-aggrandizing. Is it self-aggrandizing?
I mean, I can't speak today anyway, however you pronounce it. This person's just boasting. Well, well, yeah, that person's proud of what they did. Why shouldn't they boast? You should be proud of that person. Stop being that. Maybe you're the problem, like help people take care of themselves. Lift people up when they're proud of their accomplishments.
Take care of yourself. And there's nothing wrong with that. We shouldn't feel bad about that because I mean, if you're just gonna do it and you're gonna lie and you're just getting personal gain from it because of that, yeah, that's probably wrong if you're just doing it and you're not gonna use whatever you're doing to have a positive impact externally.
But I would say that's pretty rare. I think most people like you and me just wanna do it because we wanna, we wanna be able to give out more and then, and when we don't balance it, you find yourself in that place where you are in a depressive state. You are struggling, you're not as effective as you could be.
And I think that's just a change in mindset, especially the older generation seems to, hey, like why are all these people writing these books and all these podcasts, like, if we don't dominate that space, somebody else will and it's not gonna be what we want or what's needed. So don't bitch when in the space of being dominated by grifters and people putting out bullshit messages.
Right. That's my take on it.
Rob: My, my take is similar to yours. You know, the world's got enough ugliness to it. Why not be a positive light in, in all that? Right? And, and obviously, I mean, you, you already said it, , this is what drives your purpose. If it drives your purpose, like what else matters at this point, you know, you, completeing your time in the military, you're moving on and you're finding your second purpose in life.
Now. This is it. That's all that matters, right? What's the difference between working here, working at a corporation? You know, you know what? There, there really isn't. I, you know, and we're, and we're not all replaceable parts. Each one of us has our own distinct, you know, personality feelings, , wants, needs, and, that's okay.
Like, what, what works for you may not work for me, and so on and so forth, right?
Chuck: It's all about, as humans, we are, you know, very fallible, imperfect creatures and we will never have all the answers. I think once we accept that in life and, and realize that it's okay to be imperfect, it's okay to be wrong and be okay with be taking accountability for your own actions.
'cause every day we're gonna do something real dumb.
Rob (2): Yeah,
Chuck: probably. Yeah. They'd be like, you know what? Yeah. Let me learn from that.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's how life works, right? Just a series of learning from mistakes.
Chuck: I try to repeat the same mistake over and over again.
Rob: Yeah, that that's for, for certain,
Chuck: but sometimes you do.
Yes. Like I just can't put the toilet seat down when I'm done, so I get yelled at every day. Like, why is that
Rob: only I knew?
Chuck: All right, Rob. Well I appreciate you taking the time outta your, your busy schedule and, and coming on the, the show and it's been pretty awesome.
Rob: Yeah, I definitely appreciate it, Chuck.
You know, there's, there's a lot of vulnerability in this and it's scary. I be, I'll say straight up, you know, talking about these things. 'cause whether we want to admit it or not, there's still certainly a stigma attached to a lot of the things that I am personally doing. It is what it is, but through voices like yours.
Uh, perhaps we can, you know, make it a little more acceptable and, you know, who knows? Maybe that makes us all better leaders in the long run.